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	<title>Comments on: DeValera vs Churchill</title>
	<link>http://ambrand.com/2006/05/14/devalera-vs-churchill/</link>
	<description>The musings of a team of 20 something friends in Cork, Ireland</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 18:33:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Aidan</title>
		<link>http://ambrand.com/2006/05/14/devalera-vs-churchill/#comment-13885</link>
		<author>Aidan</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 11:32:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ambrand.com/2006/05/14/devalera-vs-churchill/#comment-13885</guid>
		<description>Several of Churchill's famous radio broadcasts were delivered by a BBC actor called Norman Shelley. Among these were his "we shall fight them on the beaches" Dunkirk speech and the "never was so much owed by so many to so few" Battle of Britain speech. Churchill was sometimes too tired to broadcast. It would be funny if this VE speech was in the same category. I don't know. The words were still Churchill's anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Several of Churchill&#8217;s famous radio broadcasts were delivered by a BBC actor called Norman Shelley. Among these were his &#8220;we shall fight them on the beaches&#8221; Dunkirk speech and the &#8220;never was so much owed by so many to so few&#8221; Battle of Britain speech. Churchill was sometimes too tired to broadcast. It would be funny if this VE speech was in the same category. I don&#8217;t know. The words were still Churchill&#8217;s anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Wilde</title>
		<link>http://ambrand.com/2006/05/14/devalera-vs-churchill/#comment-13776</link>
		<author>Wilde</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:35:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ambrand.com/2006/05/14/devalera-vs-churchill/#comment-13776</guid>
		<description>It's a great response from de Valera. Very calm and composed.  

I think he was totally correct to maintain neutrality. Ireland would have stood no chance in a time of war. It's a tiny country, with little or no resources, no manpower after having just recovered from two wars in ten years and there was hardly any fight left in us after all that had happened. If we had joined forces with Britain, the Germans would probably have pounced on us immediately and bombed us into the stone age. De Valera's staunch position saved us an awful lot of suffering. Given everything we had been through, the huge loss of life that could have been inflicted and the continuing problems that we experienced here, it was definitely the right decision on de Valera's part I think. I wouldn't consider myself a huge fan of de Valera, but I think he was a highly intelligent man who had principles and stuck with them even in the face of bullying and cryptic promises of Irish unity from Churchill. This makes me fiercely proud and this speech alone gives me huge respect for de Valera despite the fact that I'm not a fan of the constitution he drew up. This speech embodies the Irish spirit. One of the things that I love about de Valera is the respect he had for himself and for other Irish people. He taught us what it means to be proud of who you are and where you come from. We don't owe Britain anything and we shouldn't have to make any apologies. That is what this speech is all about. It's great and something we should be proud of.

I believe Churchill called this speech de Valera's 'finest hour'. He was right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a great response from de Valera. Very calm and composed.  </p>
<p>I think he was totally correct to maintain neutrality. Ireland would have stood no chance in a time of war. It&#8217;s a tiny country, with little or no resources, no manpower after having just recovered from two wars in ten years and there was hardly any fight left in us after all that had happened. If we had joined forces with Britain, the Germans would probably have pounced on us immediately and bombed us into the stone age. De Valera&#8217;s staunch position saved us an awful lot of suffering. Given everything we had been through, the huge loss of life that could have been inflicted and the continuing problems that we experienced here, it was definitely the right decision on de Valera&#8217;s part I think. I wouldn&#8217;t consider myself a huge fan of de Valera, but I think he was a highly intelligent man who had principles and stuck with them even in the face of bullying and cryptic promises of Irish unity from Churchill. This makes me fiercely proud and this speech alone gives me huge respect for de Valera despite the fact that I&#8217;m not a fan of the constitution he drew up. This speech embodies the Irish spirit. One of the things that I love about de Valera is the respect he had for himself and for other Irish people. He taught us what it means to be proud of who you are and where you come from. We don&#8217;t owe Britain anything and we shouldn&#8217;t have to make any apologies. That is what this speech is all about. It&#8217;s great and something we should be proud of.</p>
<p>I believe Churchill called this speech de Valera&#8217;s &#8216;finest hour&#8217;. He was right.</p>
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		<title>By: shea</title>
		<link>http://ambrand.com/2006/05/14/devalera-vs-churchill/#comment-13743</link>
		<author>shea</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Dec 2009 00:43:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ambrand.com/2006/05/14/devalera-vs-churchill/#comment-13743</guid>
		<description>britian cedded the treaty ports in the mid 30'ies.  they occupied them from the creation of the free state up to the conclusion of the economic war (trade dispute).   churchill believed in empire and as dev pointed out that the rights of his country supersedded the rights of others,  an imperialist.   he was pissed when the ports went he was pissed when the 26 went etc etc  good speech by dev.  read a biography of churchills before.  churchill was fasciated even paronid about dev.  had him put on the agenda to be discussed at major meetings with rosevelt and stalin.    little old us. 

on should we have joined in.   at the time in ireland partition was a much bigger issue than it is today, partition was seen and still is by some as an afrunt to our right to self determination. WW1 was just 30 years previous and this was the first war britian was involved in that we had a choice not to go into.   they exercised that choice which they won the right to.  think there decision is there position was compleately justifiable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>britian cedded the treaty ports in the mid 30&#8242;ies.  they occupied them from the creation of the free state up to the conclusion of the economic war (trade dispute).   churchill believed in empire and as dev pointed out that the rights of his country supersedded the rights of others,  an imperialist.   he was pissed when the ports went he was pissed when the 26 went etc etc  good speech by dev.  read a biography of churchills before.  churchill was fasciated even paronid about dev.  had him put on the agenda to be discussed at major meetings with rosevelt and stalin.    little old us. </p>
<p>on should we have joined in.   at the time in ireland partition was a much bigger issue than it is today, partition was seen and still is by some as an afrunt to our right to self determination. WW1 was just 30 years previous and this was the first war britian was involved in that we had a choice not to go into.   they exercised that choice which they won the right to.  think there decision is there position was compleately justifiable.</p>
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		<title>By: DAVESINNFEIN</title>
		<link>http://ambrand.com/2006/05/14/devalera-vs-churchill/#comment-13546</link>
		<author>DAVESINNFEIN</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 16:03:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ambrand.com/2006/05/14/devalera-vs-churchill/#comment-13546</guid>
		<description>Well we fought for freedon from the british and we won it. I take the point about the ports-Im sure Dev would have hadned them over to the British Navy without a problem and he probably would have built better relations with Britain after the war for having done so. However, Churchill was too much of a snob to ask Dev if he wouldnt mind awfully if he could use them. no, he had to remain the big Empire prime minister and not be seen to cow down to the former Empire johnnies....Devs reply was pure genius..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well we fought for freedon from the british and we won it. I take the point about the ports-Im sure Dev would have hadned them over to the British Navy without a problem and he probably would have built better relations with Britain after the war for having done so. However, Churchill was too much of a snob to ask Dev if he wouldnt mind awfully if he could use them. no, he had to remain the big Empire prime minister and not be seen to cow down to the former Empire johnnies&#8230;.Devs reply was pure genius..</p>
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		<title>By: Mick</title>
		<link>http://ambrand.com/2006/05/14/devalera-vs-churchill/#comment-13058</link>
		<author>Mick</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 22:55:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ambrand.com/2006/05/14/devalera-vs-churchill/#comment-13058</guid>
		<description>Rock on Dev, thats the most awe inspiring speech i have ever heard and i would love to hear the full version, I'd also love to have been a fly on the wall when winston heard it, he probably choked on one of his cigars, was there a followup statement?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rock on Dev, thats the most awe inspiring speech i have ever heard and i would love to hear the full version, I&#8217;d also love to have been a fly on the wall when winston heard it, he probably choked on one of his cigars, was there a followup statement?</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://ambrand.com/2006/05/14/devalera-vs-churchill/#comment-12953</link>
		<author>Kevin</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 23:13:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ambrand.com/2006/05/14/devalera-vs-churchill/#comment-12953</guid>
		<description>The previous responses forget the one basic reason that Churchill was responding to. The treaty that gave Ireland its independence carried a provision that in time of war the former Royal Navy bases and ports would be available to Britain. De Valera refused to honor that leaving Churchil with the choice of taking treaty rights forcibly or not. He chose the latter and it is understandable his bitterness, because during the war the Battle of the Atlantic was denied the use of the bases and Admiral Max Horton's Western Approaches comand had to use west coast UK ports adding many extra miles to escorts that had to join up with convoys. Many historians agree that this added immeasurably to the losses incurred by the battle for the Atlantic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The previous responses forget the one basic reason that Churchill was responding to. The treaty that gave Ireland its independence carried a provision that in time of war the former Royal Navy bases and ports would be available to Britain. De Valera refused to honor that leaving Churchil with the choice of taking treaty rights forcibly or not. He chose the latter and it is understandable his bitterness, because during the war the Battle of the Atlantic was denied the use of the bases and Admiral Max Horton&#8217;s Western Approaches comand had to use west coast UK ports adding many extra miles to escorts that had to join up with convoys. Many historians agree that this added immeasurably to the losses incurred by the battle for the Atlantic.</p>
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		<title>By: BobSnots</title>
		<link>http://ambrand.com/2006/05/14/devalera-vs-churchill/#comment-12916</link>
		<author>BobSnots</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:10:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ambrand.com/2006/05/14/devalera-vs-churchill/#comment-12916</guid>
		<description>Unless I've read Churchill's speech incorrectly, he doesn't say that, in certain circumstances, he would have violated Ireland's neutrality and that he would have justified his action by Britain’s necessity.  Doesn't he actually say that Britain made a purposeful decision not to violate Ireland's neutrality because of the political status quo?

Also, wasn't the focus of Britain's concern in Eire at that particular time the protection of the Western Approaches where convoys were taking an enormous battering from lurking German U-Boats?

Maybe De Valera held a festering distaste for Churchill personally or Britain nationally (and maybe that was justifiable) but don't you think he exhibited an inability to keep pace with the realities of contemporary politics? He can surely only be judged by his own actions and I personally think that his wartime actions were despicable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unless I&#8217;ve read Churchill&#8217;s speech incorrectly, he doesn&#8217;t say that, in certain circumstances, he would have violated Ireland&#8217;s neutrality and that he would have justified his action by Britain’s necessity.  Doesn&#8217;t he actually say that Britain made a purposeful decision not to violate Ireland&#8217;s neutrality because of the political status quo?</p>
<p>Also, wasn&#8217;t the focus of Britain&#8217;s concern in Eire at that particular time the protection of the Western Approaches where convoys were taking an enormous battering from lurking German U-Boats?</p>
<p>Maybe De Valera held a festering distaste for Churchill personally or Britain nationally (and maybe that was justifiable) but don&#8217;t you think he exhibited an inability to keep pace with the realities of contemporary politics? He can surely only be judged by his own actions and I personally think that his wartime actions were despicable.</p>
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		<title>By: William Foley</title>
		<link>http://ambrand.com/2006/05/14/devalera-vs-churchill/#comment-12872</link>
		<author>William Foley</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 01:58:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ambrand.com/2006/05/14/devalera-vs-churchill/#comment-12872</guid>
		<description>The response by dev is just perfect, it is perfect in its syntax and structure. Dev was a great politician in every sense of the word he knew how to play the game and how to keep Ireland moving forward. Idealism is great but it is no basis for government policy on war, Ireland at the time had just gained independence and was bare;y out of a civil war and was struggling to survive in peace time let alone a war. Also if we had joined the allies as Churchill states he would have no problem falling back to Ireland, after gaining freedom the Irish people would not have been willing to accept this old oppressor back into their country so quickly after getting them to leave. How could we trust them to leave once the war was over. But overall Dev knew that teh Irsih people were tired war and violence after fighting for freedom for nearly 800 years to then enter a civil war to enter a world war would have crippled the country and the spirit of its people.

De Valera being American by birth and an American citizen so Germany invading was not likely, as germany would not want to draw USA into the war. Also apparently on 6 separate occasions prevented Hitler from invading Ireland, I think this warranted 'playing' with the german ambassador.

After hearing this speech from De Valera I was very proud of my forefathers it shows the Irish as an intellectual and mature people, if at the time Britain want to push their weight around just cause they won (barely), then let them it just shows that Ireland were able to move above this and not resort to idle threats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The response by dev is just perfect, it is perfect in its syntax and structure. Dev was a great politician in every sense of the word he knew how to play the game and how to keep Ireland moving forward. Idealism is great but it is no basis for government policy on war, Ireland at the time had just gained independence and was bare;y out of a civil war and was struggling to survive in peace time let alone a war. Also if we had joined the allies as Churchill states he would have no problem falling back to Ireland, after gaining freedom the Irish people would not have been willing to accept this old oppressor back into their country so quickly after getting them to leave. How could we trust them to leave once the war was over. But overall Dev knew that teh Irsih people were tired war and violence after fighting for freedom for nearly 800 years to then enter a civil war to enter a world war would have crippled the country and the spirit of its people.</p>
<p>De Valera being American by birth and an American citizen so Germany invading was not likely, as germany would not want to draw USA into the war. Also apparently on 6 separate occasions prevented Hitler from invading Ireland, I think this warranted &#8216;playing&#8217; with the german ambassador.</p>
<p>After hearing this speech from De Valera I was very proud of my forefathers it shows the Irish as an intellectual and mature people, if at the time Britain want to push their weight around just cause they won (barely), then let them it just shows that Ireland were able to move above this and not resort to idle threats.</p>
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		<title>By: mikee</title>
		<link>http://ambrand.com/2006/05/14/devalera-vs-churchill/#comment-12778</link>
		<author>mikee</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 23:37:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ambrand.com/2006/05/14/devalera-vs-churchill/#comment-12778</guid>
		<description>I understand the nationalist sentiment, and also the reaction from Dev.  I must say however that history leaves us in a bad light (I am Irish) and a letter of condolence to the German people on Hitlers death at a time when the camps were becoming knowledge is little short of shocking.  Ireland was treated very badly by "the Brits", undisputed - would we have preferred the Nazis?  At base level the British are our closest neighbours.  Had they been invaded how long would it have been before jackboots were walking through Dublin and murdering Irish Jews and others that they felt like murdering.  We should have joined the war, but people do what they think is the best thing to do</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand the nationalist sentiment, and also the reaction from Dev.  I must say however that history leaves us in a bad light (I am Irish) and a letter of condolence to the German people on Hitlers death at a time when the camps were becoming knowledge is little short of shocking.  Ireland was treated very badly by &#8220;the Brits&#8221;, undisputed - would we have preferred the Nazis?  At base level the British are our closest neighbours.  Had they been invaded how long would it have been before jackboots were walking through Dublin and murdering Irish Jews and others that they felt like murdering.  We should have joined the war, but people do what they think is the best thing to do</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://ambrand.com/2006/05/14/devalera-vs-churchill/#comment-12611</link>
		<author>John</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ambrand.com/2006/05/14/devalera-vs-churchill/#comment-12611</guid>
		<description>Undoubtedly Dev was right. I can only assume Churchill was still high on victory and this reinforced his own sence of self rightousness to abandon diplomacy and historical fact in order to critisize Ireland.

The fact is that the British were Irelands Nazis for centuries and through all that time we stood alone. Britain sewed seeds of hatred in Ireland which (to its huge surprise??) it reaped during WW2.

I think Dev's hypothetical question regarding what Churchill would do if Germany had conquered England, subjected it to years of tyranny, granted it freedom  but still holding strategic partitioned counties and then expected England to join it in a crusade, summed it up for us.

Above all it gave a real Irish freedom fighter (whatever his faults he was in the Easter Rising) the chance to chastise Britain for its crimes against Ireland as a head of state. The statesman-like manner in which Dev delivered it was a moral victory and a lesson in diplomacy for Churchill</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Undoubtedly Dev was right. I can only assume Churchill was still high on victory and this reinforced his own sence of self rightousness to abandon diplomacy and historical fact in order to critisize Ireland.</p>
<p>The fact is that the British were Irelands Nazis for centuries and through all that time we stood alone. Britain sewed seeds of hatred in Ireland which (to its huge surprise??) it reaped during WW2.</p>
<p>I think Dev&#8217;s hypothetical question regarding what Churchill would do if Germany had conquered England, subjected it to years of tyranny, granted it freedom  but still holding strategic partitioned counties and then expected England to join it in a crusade, summed it up for us.</p>
<p>Above all it gave a real Irish freedom fighter (whatever his faults he was in the Easter Rising) the chance to chastise Britain for its crimes against Ireland as a head of state. The statesman-like manner in which Dev delivered it was a moral victory and a lesson in diplomacy for Churchill</p>
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